PSA: Stop using Amazon rankings

Let me list a few truths before beginning here. Windows Phone (as much as we like it) is not penetrating the market in ways that Microsoft intended when it was announced about two years ago. The low global market share is a downer to most of us, the performance in countries where there is quite a bit of money to go around is poor, and such information would make anyone hit their head on their desk in frustration. But fear not, Microsoft is winning in one area – Amazon. Yep, that Amazon – one of the major sources for online purchasing of goods and services from books to electronics (even food and underwear) – its a site where Windows Phone seems to perform extremely well. The success for Windows Phone and Amazon is given ad infinitum by other sites which also report Microsoft related news and even as recently as last week in Microsoft’s Windows Phone 8 announcement by Joe Belfiore. It’s definitely something to be proud of because Amazon is a great site and I have nothing but praise for the site. But then, let’s place some logic into that success, because there’s a lot that doesn’t make one iota of sense for mentioning Windows Phone success on Amazon.

To begin with, let’s consider how things are ranked by Amazon. Taking a quick gander at the Amazon.com Frequently Asked Questions yields:

What Sales Rank Means – As an added service for customers, authors, publishers, artists, labels, and studios, we show how items in our catalog are selling. The lower the number, the higher the sales for that particular item. The calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated each hour to reflect recent and historical sales of every item sold on Amazon.com. We hope you find the Amazon.com Sales Rank interesting!

So, to dismiss some of the questionable content of the message, the main goal is the rankings Amazon provides are not an indicator of how much of a specific item is being sold, but an indicator of how well an item is selling compared to other items in the same category. Of course, there are several factors to consider here (such as whether or not there’s a specific holiday for instance, or time, or type of day) to determine how that rank is performed.

Let’s also consider one more thing: statistical data. As indicated by emarketer more than seven out of ten internet users are online buyers. Furthermore, it was expected that 148 million US consumers ages 14 and older will make at least one purchase online. From 2010 – 2015, nearly 30 million consumers will join the ranks of online buyers, representing 3.9% compound annual growth rate (CAGR). Given the statistics, it would indicate some very strong numbers for Windows Phone, right? I mean the Lumia 900 has topped Amazon charts constantly, the online buying avenue is shown to grow further, what’s the holdup? Well, for most trends, it would appear that smartphones are a bit of a different bag of tea.

If you have a carrier/retailer in your area, make a quick observation. Walk into that store and see how many people are there. Assuming that the statistics are true, one can conclude that people aren’t buying phones in carrier/reseller stores, but buying them online. But if you take a look in a carrier/reseller store, chances are there are quite a few people that still go into a store. Whether it is to purchase an accessory, pay a bill, buy a new phone, the carrier outlet still represents a large percentage of mobile phone purchases. This isn’t something that is isolated to any mobile phone actually. In fact, the lines outside of an Apple store on the sale of a new iPhone are just as long as they have been since 2007 (if not longer).

So this leads to a fundamental flaw for using a completely online ranking (like Amazon) as a predictor of mobile platform performance. Despite several people using Amazon as a means to shop for mobile phones (or anything), several more people still go to retail stores. This is certainly the case for smartphone purchases regardless of age. For a moment, let’s assume Amazon rankings for smartphone are accurate, that would also mean that the platform penetration in America would be far higher (which we know it’s not).

For my bloggers, pundits, and everyone who reads, can you do me a little favor? Stop using Amazon as a predictor of Windows Phone success. It is about as much as a statistical inaccuracy as Dewey vs. Truman in the late 1940s for any history buffs out there. While online shopping is growing and represents a very fast growing user base, the people that still go to brick and mortar carrier shops dwarfs the people that use Amazon, and frankly it should. A platform’s success is based on several factors and it is an aggregrate of information including online shops and reseller outlets and the brick and mortar store. I’m not trying to be a jerk when I make this plea, but please just stop. Windows Phone has to hang on any positive accolade it can, and that number is getting fewer and fewer as time goes on. But harping on Amazon is akin to deception here and Windows Phone doesn’t need to deceive its user base.

How about we stop spreading the inaccuracy then? I mean you don’t have to but it would probably make me happier if you did. But it’s your call.

329 days ago by in Microsoft , Uncategorized | You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
About the

I am a clinical psychology student that loves to inform on news related to smarphones and technology in general. I also love Microsoft's current Windows Phone OS as it is top of the class in terms of ux.

  • surur

    This article makes no sense. Just because everyone or even the majority do not buy at Amazon does not mean it can not be a reflection of how well a product is selling.

    No-one says Amazon ranking can be translated into sales numbers, but they do seem to translate well into actual sales ranks – when the Lumia 900 was on top on Amazon in April and May, Connocord also said it was only second to the iPhone in the brick and mortar retail channel also.

    • Malcolm Williams

      how did I know you’d respond
      If it was a reflection of platform performance then windows phone would be the top selling mobile phone for about 2 months or so. American market share would’ve increased DRASTICALLY due to the lumia 900 sales.
      Both of those are questionable and open to debate…because frankly that hasn’t happened yet.
      But it is of course typical here. I mean I just made a suggestion you can at least consider it or not. But hey what can I do right? Can’t put a gun to anyone’s head to spread inaccurate statistical conclusions based on a service that isn’t used by a majority of users…

      But again, that’s not happening. So if you wish to continue to deceive users. Be my guest

      • surur

        Are you implying that the Nokia Lumia 900 was not a top seller on AT&T (second to the iPhone, which is not sold on Amazon) for two months? Do you have anything to back that up, because a numerous independent analysts did in fact say it was.

        Maybe you are not understanding that, unless you are the iPhone, it takes more than one successful handset for market share to ”
        increased DRASTICALLY”.

        • Malcolm Williams

          No one said it wasn’t a top sell for Windows Phone (but you put words in my mouth, but I still love you surur always will)

          What I am saying is this
          By arguing that Amazon is a predictor of platform success is a statistical error. In fact it is also a logical error and a bias. And when that happens, I think some are leery of improper use of statistics. Because, that’s what is happening. Improper use of statistics to derive a conclusion to drive a propoganda message. It has been all the rage in news, so its not just wmpu or something, it is a hallmark of all sensationalized news.

          But can you honestly say based on Amazon ranking that a platform is doing well while also knowing that the majority of consumers use reseller/carrier outlets to purchase their mobile devices?

          I mean if you can, God bless ya cause uhm…yeah…
          But still mad love for you <3

          • surur

            I certainly can. Its what’s called a sample, and how accurate a sample of the market it is be argued, but at present it seems pretty representative, given that the analyst retail checks corroborate it.
            Sent from my Windows Phone

          • Malcolm Williams

            Realy? Even though consumers still go to retail stores by an overwhelming margin? Granted it is a sample, but so was the people with telephones who responded to a telephone survey in the 1940s to indicate that Dewey won the presidency as was reported by the Chicago Sun Times-which was in fact to be proven inaccurate.

            It’s first day stats man. Now if you want to create a conclusion based on that, kudos. I will wait til the july earnings call.

            That said it is a digression of things. My point is why use amazon? Why is it only amazon? Unless, there is very little statistical data to repudiate the claim that Windows Phone market is on the rise besides using online vendors…

            Though that leads to an interesting question in that aspect. Just who are you trying to prove for windows phone success?I don’t necessarily see apple or android do the same. In its hey day symbian didn’t do that as much either. So who are you trying to prove this to exactly?

            And for that matter why is it always online versus brick and mortar stores that receive a tremendous amount of users on a daily basis?

          • surur

            Malcolm, we use what data we have, thats all. If we had brick and mortar data we would use it too, but we dont. Waiting every 3 months for the earnings call is very 1999.

          • Malcolm Williams

            So the alternative is to push a narrative that you know is not congruent with the myriad of other reports indicating both Nokia and Windows Phone progress is positive when in fact it is quite negative…

            How is the reporting not like fox again?

          • surur

            Once again, are you claiming the Nokia Lumia 900 did not sell well in April and May 2012? Because the analysts disagree. What’s the source of your belief?

          • Malcolm Williams

            As I have said before

            No one said it wasn’t a top sell for Windows Phone (but you put words in my mouth, but I still love you surur always will)

            What I am saying is this
            By arguing that Amazon is a predictor of
            platform success is a statistical error. In fact it is also a logical
            error and a bias. And when that happens, I think some are leery of
            improper use of statistics. Because, that’s what is happening. Improper
            use of statistics to derive a conclusion to drive a propoganda message.
            It has been all the rage in news, so its not just wmpu or something, it
            is a hallmark of all sensationalized news.

            But can you honestly say based on Amazon ranking that a platform is
            doing well while also knowing that the majority of consumers use
            reseller/carrier outlets to purchase their mobile devices?

            I mean if you can, God bless ya cause uhm…yeah…
            But still mad love for you <3

            Why is it so difficult for you to explain the rationale and put so much emphasis on amazon…unless some part of you realizes that amazon ranking is the only data you have and also realize it is unrealistic to conclude platform success based on amazon rankings. In that event you’d prove my point succinctly.
            Good job of trying to retread a circuitous premise though that I have covered a few times.
            As I said, I will wait til the earnings call. But I’ll do one better actually, y know since elop already lowered his expectations in lieu of the lumia 900 sales…fancy this?
            “Our disappointing Devices & Services first quarter
            2012 financial results and outlook for the second quarter 2012
            illustrates that our Devices & Services business continues to be in
            the midst of transition.
            Within our Smart Devices business unit, we have established early
            momentum with Lumia, and we are increasing our investments in Lumia to
            achieve market success. Our operator and distributor partners are
            providing solid support for Windows Phone as a third ecosystem, as
            evidenced most recently by the launch of the Lumia 900 by AT&T in
            the United States.”

            I don’t have to think anything. Elop already lowered his q2 expectations. I’ll wait til July to see if the expectations are valid

          • surur

            You are clearly confused, so I will try and straighten you out.
            1) The Nokia Lumia 900 on AT&T sold well, not just at Amazon, but also in the retail channel, according to channel checks by several analysts. It sold well, not just for Windows Phone, but any phone.

            Clearly Amazon US ranking does not tell you anything about the performance of the handset in any other part of the world. Maybe thats where your confusion stems from.

            However I am sure you know US is an important market – in fact it was the main reason Nokia adopted Windows Phone, so success there is meaningful.

            So in short sentences so you will understand –

            Amazon correlates to total US sales.

            I hope thats simple enough.

          • Malcolm Williams

            1. No one is dismissing the Lumia 900 sales. We have conjecture based on statements that were indicated by Elop and de La Vega. Which of course is fine. The problem with the way you report things is that you miss out any form of information that may be negative to Windows Phone. How is that news reporting again?

            2. The confusion has very little to do with handset performance. I have already listed my criticisms, now if you’re blind to read that criticism that’s perfectly fine. But that’s also why I love doing something like this:

            Let’s also consider one more thing: statistical data. As indicated by emarketer
            more than seven out of ten internet users are online buyers.
            Furthermore, it was expected that 148 million US consumers ages 14 and
            older will make at least one purchase online. From 2010 – 2015, nearly
            30 million consumers will join the ranks of online buyers, representing
            3.9% compound annual growth rate (CAGR). Given the statistics, it would
            indicate some very strong numbers for Windows Phone, right? I mean the
            Lumia 900 has topped Amazon charts constantly, the online buying avenue
            is shown to grow further, what’s the holdup? Well, for most trends, it
            would appear that smartphones are a bit of a different bag of tea.

            If you have a carrier/retailer in your area, make a quick
            observation. Walk into that store and see how many people are there.
            Assuming that the statistics are true, one can conclude that people
            aren’t buying phones in carrier/reseller stores, but buying them online.
            But if you take a look in a carrier/reseller store, chances are there
            are quite a few people that still go into a store. Whether it is to
            purchase an accessory, pay a bill, buy a new phone, the carrier outlet
            still represents a large percentage of mobile phone purchases. This
            isn’t something that is isolated to any mobile phone actually. In fact,
            the lines outside of an Apple store on the sale of a new iPhone are just
            as long as they have been since 2007 (if not longer).
            So this leads to a fundamental flaw for using a completely online
            ranking (like Amazon) as a predictor of mobile platform performance.

            Again if you’re a bit lazy or old (heck I dunno not many of us are spring chickens you know, even I’m reaching up there in age) to completely miss that part about the improper conclusion about derived statistical data, that’s fine. I’ll say it in a few sentences.

            The majority of users still go to brick and mortar stores in an overwhelming margin in most parts of the world. The people that do purchase their phones online is due to lack of availability or because they know what they want. Sampling trends would indicate that while the sample is random (because we aren’t supposed to track data in rankings), it is a poor predictor of platform performance because so few people ACTUALLY go to amazon to order their phones.

            And yet, you still continue to push the lumia 900 narrative, which again is fine. But it is a logical fallacy used to deter from the point. Which I can do that ad nauseum with you (and you know i can)

            See how fun that is? But again that’s not the point.

            The point is simple. You can assume til the cows come home that platform success is pined on Amazon, but you have very little statistical evidence of that. You have projections (which are fine) but even those have been modified since the lack of success of Nokia and Windows Phone previous ventures.

            Bubby, baby, Sur, come on. Can you really use one small sample to make a conclusion about trends in the mobile market with a straight face? I mean really?

          • surur

            You clearly do not understand the concept of a sample. In addition you dismiss corroborative evidence suggesting amazon rankings are representative. Your whole argument is based on incredulity instead of knowledge, and you are arguing from ignorance.
            Just because you do not understand stats does not mean you are right. Do some studying.
            Sent from my Windows Phone

          • Malcolm Williams

            Sur, I’m trying to understand your point. The thing is you don’t get mine. As someone that just finished full research utilizing a 2000 sample population within the United States to study burnout amongst mental health practitioners of the area, I can surely say I know my way around statistics. However, you don’t. But that’s fine.

            Let’s go into the issue with your use of amazon as a sample.

            1. We know that amazon represents a small minority of users
            2. Majority of users still go to carrier stores in an overwhelming margin

            So, by utilizing amazon as a sample leads to one issue – sample bias or a sampling error in which some members of the intended population are less likely to be included than others. Utilizing Amazon represents a small sample and neglects the user base that still goes to the store. Therefore, deriving any results based on a sampling bias yields to erroneous conclusions about the phenomenon under investigation.

            And yet, you say I have no idea about a sample. Do you Sur? I think not. But that’s fine, I still tutor I teach a lot when I’m not doing mobile. I can email you my contact information send ya some of my notes on simple day 3 descriptive statistics if you want. More than willing to help =)

          • surur

            Your argument from authority is a bit of a fail, given that in a hospital setting I would normally tell you what to do.

            Either way only one of us can be right – either Amazon sales are representative or not.

            Maybe you can get the r-value for this data

            April— Amazon Lumia 900 sales good — Retail Lumia 900 sales good
            May — Amazon Lumia 900 sales rank good — Retail Lumia 900 sales good

            Given your claim about knowing stats, you should know a) that you did not show that people buying at Amazon are different from the general population and b) the sample size is too small to make their data generalizable. You cant just claim this just by saying it.

          • Malcolm Williams

            My argument isn’t based on where I work and what I do. It’s statistics dude. This has very little to do with many things but one simple premise

            You’re using a value to indicate a generizable conclusion when that generizable conclusion can’t be applied leading to a sampling bias (as explained above)

            Secondly, no one indicated that they weren’t apart of the general population. They are, they are random as well. The problem is in application. To be frank, carrier brick and mortar stores outsell amazon sales ranks by an overwhelming margin.

            If we were to believe amazon rankings, we would see a different phone as number 1 and the gs ii (for instance) as a low sell both in america and worldwide. However, Samsung already has gone on the record to indicate there are over 9 million (and counting) PRE ORDERS.

            Surur, are you so blinded by fanboyism that you try and push a narrative so hard that you can’t even see the fact that

            1. the proposition is full of statistical error, logical and pragmatic error
            2. You post a message that doesn’t even help your case?

            At this point, having such an argument is going into a circle and covering ground already covered ad finitum both in the article, in the commentary, and even on twitter. This is getting a bit too sad, even for you in that you offer no new proposition, no new form of logic, but the same regurgitated mess I’ve already answered so many times.

            To be frank Sur, I’m bored and this is putting me to sleep. But fear not, that’s fine by me =D Because I do this all the time. It’s okay surur if you forget first few days statistics. Heck it’s even okay to present a narrative that isn’t congruent to the reality of Windows Phone. I even forgive all of that.

            But this is just a plea. Don’t you think its better to show an accurate form of information? It doesn’t even have to be honestly free from bias actually (because at the end of the day, we all have our biases toward a platform, product, OEM and so on). But as a top source for windows phone news, don’t you want something better than improperly pushing a Windows Phone era through use of fishy statistics and conjecture?

            Come on, this isn’t apple and Microsoft is not Tim Cook. But who knows, considering Apple computer share is amazingly higher than Windows Phone, well I suppose I can see why you’d have to fudge statistics to present a biased narrative to get more clicks and pay your bills. Which is fine, it’s okay.

            Just not something I’d really do. At least from a statistical POV. Different strokes for different folks.

            But still mad love for you. Even if your knowledge of statistics could use some improvement…

          • surur

            So you claim the sample representative but the size is too low? What’s your proof for that statement? The “overwhelming margin” is completely irrelevant.
            We are only talking about At&T in USA, something you miss constantly.

            How about you answer this one single question – Do you believe the NL 900 was the second best selling phone on AT&T in April or not?
            Sent from my Windows Phone

          • Malcolm Williams

            =(
            Bored now not because of the passion of the argument but because again this is a retread

            Where is your proof that people go to brick and mortar stores to buy phones, arguing sample size?
            http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2010/12/online_shopping_is_overrated.html

            Well that’s a start, but I honestly wish I could pull some more data typing this post haste (getting ready for work)

            But then this can be asked another way
            What makes you think in spite of people still buying merchandise in stores, that amazon is an accurate predictor?

            As for the third question I’ve answered it already, so many times it’s not even funny. I’ll say it in a sentence because I love ya

            I don’t know. I’ll wait until the earnings call because so far, while Elop has indicated the numbers were better than expectations, the expectations were lowered shortly after the Lumia 900 launch.

            I’ll wait til july and report the data per usual and not go into sensationalization to get a few clicks thanks

          • surur

            I’ll take that as a no then, which means I might as well bail out on the thread also, because its not just Amazon you dont trust, but all the analysts also. I bet you trust NPD numbers, but they are a much smaller group than Amazon buyers also.

          • Malcolm Williams

            NPD is one of many. Asymco, NPD, comScore and even then we don’t get a representative image of what’s going on. Until you observe the market itself.

            It’s fun you love to pollute some actual arguments with your biases. it’s cute. Just also very sad =(

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rudy-Townsell/100000622533829 Rudy Townsell

    My understanding from watching the dev conference was that Microsoft was quoting the highest reviews on Amazon not the sales charts, indicating the high level of customer satisfaction of the OS experience. Which kinda makes this article irrelevant. There may have been other sources that have quoted Amazon sales rankings as an indicator of its success but your inability to state such sources (and the fact that I’ve never come across any) makes me conclude that this article is primarily preaching to an issue that does not exist. If you are going to make a article about a problem, please at least reference where the problem exists.

    • Malcolm Williams

      Problem exists when one source is used as a means of indicating platform success in a region where the platform isn’t successful at all. It creates an improper representation of the market by using one SINGLE reference of information as a means of supporting fallicious data.

      And it is spreads around like wildfire. Which is fine. But it doesn’t mean it is an accurate view of the market as a whole. The last time I heard a satisfaction anything on Windows Phone was sometime last year. Now that could be due to not many people actually testing whether there is a high level of user satisfaction, or that Apple still trumps user satisfaction in terms of Windows Phone.

      Third let’s take a look at the live press event a bit
      http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Windows-Phone/Summit
      It isn’t about satisfaction, its about ranking and sales. Which is the point of the article.

      Fourth, it’s one source. And while one source is the basis of many statistics, there should be a nice star or something to indicate that it isn’t all inclusive, it’s not conclusive, and always open to change. In fact, even looking at how amazon ranks, it is changed hourly. Given this is the internet, it is very VERY easy to misrepresent data and claim a narrative that isn’t congruent to the phenonemon that’s being observed.

      Said another way
      The amazon data does not reflect attitudes of the general consumer. Neither in marketshare,

      But let’s assume that it presents customer satisfaction based on rank (even though amazon has explicitly stated that’s not the purpose). Well…it still doesn’t

      http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/01/09/iphone-satisfaction-at-75-closest-competitor-at-47/

      iOS still has the top customer satisfaction, followed by android, then Windows Phone at 32% customer satisfaction when viewed from a different body not amazon. Sadly, a lot of that data does represent the phenomenon under investigation. People are satisfied with their iPhones by an overwhelming margin. This isn’t just some conjecture, but it’s constant and has been for a few years.

      http://www.intomobile.com/2010/04/01/iphone-tops-customer-satisfaction-survey/

      a quick google can also yield some unique data about iOS customer satisfaction.

      Though I gotta say better criticism than some comments here, but the point is simple. Amazon is not a good statistical predictor of mobile trends. Nor will it ever be. It isn’t even a full predictor of selling trends because it doesn’t aggregrate data from other sources

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rudy-Townsell/100000622533829 Rudy Townsell

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=royJee1SQlY Look here at 4:30. The presenter specifically states that they are rated by top user ratings. The slide states highest RATED cellphones with service plans. He in no way states it is ranked by most sold. You can check yourself at Amazon looking at smartphones rated by Average user review here: http://amzn.to/N7XC4b. As I stated before, the presenter never stated it was the highest selling handset, which again shows that this article is incorrect. Your first link to customer satisfaction is before Nokia did its big push for the 800 and 900 windows phones, in Jan 2012, and the second was a week before the Nokia 900 was officially released (April 9th). I’m not trying to argue for arguments sake, I’m just stating that in fact that Microsoft did not state any sales numbers in reference to Amazon at their event, and that the sites you posted referencing user satisfaction did not have the entire picture when referencing WP’s customer satisfaction. When linking someone to something, please do research first to see how relevant it actually is to your argument. I hope we can agree to disagree on the validity to this article and thank you for replying civilly at all (which can be rare on the internet).

  • thelondonthing

    Malcolm, I don’t think you’ve actually taken on board any of the points that Surur was making. It seems that your head is so far up your own arse – pointing out how knowledgeable you are about statistics, and how experienced you are with sampling, and how fucking amazing you are – that you’ve ignored the facts that Surur was trying to explain to you.

    You’re trying to dismiss the Amazon data without considering the fact that it does not exist in isolation, but is substantiated by further corroborative information – quantitative and qualitative, subjective and objective, biased and objective – that supports the broad conclusions drawn. No-one is trying to say that Windows Phone has stormed the market or even captured a particularly large chunk of it when pointing towards Amazon and similar information; the conclusion being drawn is simply that sales of Windows Phones are demonstrably healthy, based upon information such as the Amazon charts, and tidbits from carriers such as AT&T and T-Mobile USA (the latter, for example, recently confirmed that the Nokia Lumia 710 has been a top-five seller since its launch at the start of the year, and that a huge percentage of buyers have migrated from feature phones rather than from rival smartphone platforms). This latter information is particularly significant, because it suggests that Windows Phone has the potential to grow the smartphone market without relying on the much more difficult task of trying to steal market share from entrenched rivals.

    Look at the information available – stop fixating on the Amazon side of things in isolation – and listen to what other people are trying to tell you.

    Your article is based on a very narrow understanding of what is actually a much broader landscape of available information, yet you seem determined to patronise those who dare to disagree with you. Get over yourself, accept that you’re wrong and stop being such a condescending prick. It’s one thing to defend your work, but to continue defending it with such an arrogant, pissy attitude – even while the evidence clearly contradicts your specious arguments – just makes you look like a stupid little child with his fingers in his ears, saying “LA LA LA LA LA”.

    Grow up, learn to deal with criticism, and dig deep to find the balls to admit when you’re wrong.

    • Malcolm Williams

      You’re trying to dismiss the Amazon data without considering the fact that it does not exist in isolation, but is substantiated by further corroborative information – quantitative and qualitative, subjective and objective, biased and objective – that supports the broad conclusions drawn.

      that broad conclusion being…windows phone is growing? Sure it is, but let’s take a quick look at that growth rate shall we (especially in America)

      http://www.markkinaosuus.com/

      one source granted, but it correlates with NPD, comscore, and others

      No one said there wasn’t growth. Way to assume my arguments though. What I did say was

      1. amazon shouldn’t be an end all be all
      2. Amazon may not completely reflect the attitudes of the general consumer

      even from the article/comments, the position is made clear. Heck, be open to disagreement, but you better have … something. So let’s see what ya got =)

      the conclusion being drawn is simply that sales of Windows Phones are demonstrably healthy,

      let’s take a look at that…

      http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/comscore-rim-microsoft-face-mobile-market-share-crisis/73046

      of course this is prior to the Lumia 900 release but I wouldn’t consider negative changes a pure indicator of healthy. In fact, it represents a negative trend whereas health is positive. But where do you derive that? Let’s see

      based upon information such as the Amazon charts, and tidbits from carriers such as AT&T and T-Mobile USA (the latter, for example, recently confirmed that the Nokia Lumia 710 has been a top-five seller since its launch at the start of the year, and that a huge percentage of buyers have migrated from feature phones rather than from rival smartphone platforms).

      The exact quote indicated here is one by Elop not inasmuch a carrier statement. So let’s begin there

      http://www.wpcentral.com/t-mobile-lumia-710-exceeding-expectations-according-elop

      Elop is funny for a few reasons here. In spite of saying that, his expectations for the Lumia device were already lowered for Q1 2012 and Q2 2012 (Elop indicated this as of April 11, 2012, days after the Lumia 900 hit the states).

      So were his expectations lower? Oh big time he surely indicated that. So anything exceeding low expectations is a good thing for anyone who follows corporate jargon. But that doesn’t represent much. And sadly, we won’t know the growth until the July earnings call.

      But maybe there’s another argument to be made here. Let’s take a look:

      Look at the information available – stop fixating on the Amazon side of things in isolation – and listen to what other people are trying to tell you

      ah other information? Gotcha
      since I already posted comscore and NPD which represent a negative trend, which other information should I list?

      Your article is based on a very narrow understanding of what is actually a much broader landscape of available information, yet you seem determined to patronise those who dare to disagree with you.

      Eh, subjectivity and fanboyism aside, it’s common sense. If every other source (above predictions, but solid current data) suggests Windows Phone is in trouble, what are you going to go with? Well maybe not the stats. But perhaps observe in your area. How many Lumia’s in America do you see daily? I travel on a train and surprisingly I see far more iphones and androids than I have ever seen Windows Phone. How is that significant? Well it reinforces the market research that Windows Phone isn’t selling in my area (a very busy Chicago).

      Now taken into another consideration because maybe it is based on location. And that can always determine a change in statistics. But then you look at other areas of the United States, other areas of the world, and you see the major positive growth in Finland. That’s it. But of course, I could be wrong.

      Maybe your experience is better than mine. I’ll always leave that open for options.

      Get over yourself, accept that you’re wrong and stop being such a condescending prick.

      Yeah, bout being wrong, you haven’t really proven your case ya know just sayin…

      It’s one thing to defend your work, but to continue defending it with such an arrogant, pissy attitude – even while the evidence clearly contradicts your specious arguments – just makes you look like a stupid little child with his fingers in his ears, saying “LA LA LA LA LA”.

      I’ll have some fun here

      speculative – Engaged in, expressing, or based on conjecture rather than knowledge.

      knowledge – Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject; What is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information.

      hm interesting. So an argument based on conjecture is speculative but knowledge is based on education, experience, facts and information. Hm, now where would those facts come from? An objective scientific third party. Yes correct. Now, that third party…hm…where would I get that?

      Oh yes
      NPD
      comscore
      etc etc etc
      and what are those conclusions? If not slow growth or consistency, there is decline.

      Essentially, Amazon data is a close system that negates the impact that carriers retail stores have on selling product. En masse, people still go to those stores and those are a large representation of market data. When you look at carriers, iOS and droid are still top dogs. Windows Phone isn’t even in the top 3!

      So, instead of letting fanboyism impede ya, why not take a look at the statistics you abhor so much? Pretty enlightening.

      Grow up, learn to deal with criticism, and dig deep to find the balls to admit when you’re wrong

      I agree. Now if you can just not be ruled by fanboyism…

      • thelondonthing

        I don’t know if you’re aware of this or not, but you haven’t actually made any real points there. What you’ve done is write an awful lot of words, and repeated the points that Surur and I already made in trying to show you where you’ve gone erred in drawing the wrong conclusions from a limited field of view.

        It’s particularly enlightening that, instead of adhering exclusively to the facts and data that you profess to hold so dear, you continue to default to being patronising and condescending, apparently in the hope that the more confident and bullish you appear, the more right you will be come.

        Again, I point to the fact that this does nothing but present you as an arrogant prick.
        It’s similarly telling that despite the fact that I explained my position quite clearly – acknowledging that no-one is pretending or deluding themselves here that Windows Phone is outselling everything else on the market, nor that Windows Phone is even stealing significant share from entrenched competitors – you still took my one and only comment on this subject as proof that I’m a “fanboy”, a point which you repeated more than once.

        I’m not a fanboy, you ignorant dribbling moron. If you’re looking purely at market share, Windows Phone is a fucking disaster. it’s been on the market for almost two years, and has virtually nothing to show for it. Android devices are being activated at the rate of a million A DAY, while Windows Phone is struggling to sell a few devices PER QUARTER.
        But you don’t seem to understand that even within a broader failure, there can be success. An organisation can, for example, lose billions of dollars in a year, yet still have profitable divisions. A government may lose a general election, yet still make significant constituency gains. And while Windows Phone is far from being a market leader, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t making sales progress, evident in network operators – not Nokia employees, but the carriers themselves – revealing that the handsets are selling well, along with data such as the Amazon charts.

        Why on earth do you keep bringing retail stores into the discussion about Amazon sales? The Amazon charts represent sales on Amazon. They are not claiming to represent sales across the market as a whole. No-one is pretending or claiming that the Amazon charts represent anything more than how some Windows Phones are selling ON AMAZON. You are the only one fixated on the correlation between the Amazon charts and retail stores, despite the fact that it’s not only completely irrelevant to the discussion, but also that no-one but you keeps raising that point. This is the equivalent of you telling me that BlackBerrys are selling very well in Venezuela, for example, only for me to then shit all over you for claiming that that means BlackBerrys are a global sales success. Would that be fair? No, because you’ve only highlighted sales in one specific example, and you haven’t claimed that those sales are representative of anything more than the example that you highlighted. Here, the Amazon sales charts are indicative of decent sales for some Windows Phones ON AMAZON. We can then look at other information such as feedback from carriers, to build a more complete picture, but again, no-one believes that we can get a full understanding of the sales landscape based solely on Amazon’s charts. I don’t know how many different ways this simple fact needs to be reiterated before it sinks in – but it all boils down to the fact that you are creating the arguments that you’re arguing against, and then blaming others for making those points, AND still ignoring the most important points that we’re trying to make. In essence, you’re arguing against yourself, blaming others for raising claims that were never made, and not even listening to what’s actually being said in response to your assertions.

        Understand this. PLEASE, understand this. No-one is pretending for a single fucking minute that this is a complete picture. No-one is claiming that just because the Amazon charts say that certain Windows Phone handsets are in the top ten/five/three, that Windows Phone is officially a runaway success. And every time you start contesting those points that no-one is making, instead of looking at the broader picture objectively – accepting the shitty market share of WIndows Phone, alongside the increased traction it’s gaining in some areas, such as capturing feature phone users migrating to smartphones – it makes you look like an even bigger dick.

        This isn’t fanboyism. That’s an infantile argument which does nothing but establish you as someone who can’t properly discuss and debate the points being made, and so positions his opponent as biased and therefore unable to be objective. A fanboy sticks his head in the ground and ignores anything that might impugn the reputation of whatever they hold beloved. I acknowledge Windows Phone’s many, many failings, and I frequently criticise Microsoft for its numerous foolish decisions, including the terrible decision to effectively dead-end this generation of devices with the 7.8 update rather than WP8, for example.

        I’m not a fanboy. But you, you are a dick. You’re a dick who either doesn’t understand when he’s wrong, even in the face of logic and reason and evidence, or a dick who simply refuses to acknowledge it. But either way, you’ve got nothing insightful to contribute on this subject, despite thinking that you’re the only one in the whole universe who gets it.

        To use one of your charmingly patronising phrases, that’s very sad =(

        Hilarious, but very, very sad.

  • ArrowSmith

    You don’t sound pro-Windows Phone to me.